Talk: Delusions

edits reviewed

CURRENT: A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. In psychiatry, the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).

YOUR PROPOSED: A delusion is a belief created by the mind to satisfy a need, by deceiving consciousness, and can exist with other known facts that prove the belief wrong. In psychiatry, the belief is part of pathological illness.

COMMENT: A delusion is not necessarily created to satisfy a "need" Dr. Kiffs def is more precise and technically accurate. Dr. Becker-Weidman ^Talk 14:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

There are two areas that I see problems with in the current definition. The wording is very skewed with respect to the point Dr. Kiff is trying to make. If this is a professional site, I don't think we want to know how a concept is "commonly defined", as the current definition states, because the common definition of almost any given concept in psychology would be far from accurate. You(as I) can probably think of multiple occurences of the common person talking about schizophrenia as "someone with multiple personalities". And again the current definition uses the preposition "in everyday language", only stressing the words association with the average person. Then we have the preposition "to describe a belief", which was already mentioned previously in the sentence. Also the definition states that a delusion is a false belief twice in the same sentence. Now, my wording is not perfect, but in its linguistic context it is far more appropriate for a wiki, because people don't want to read a somewhat wordy definition and instead seek a specific definition with specific words linked to their definition. This is probably quite a factor in determining the amount of time a person spends on this site and how many instances they wish to use this site for reference, which means if we improve we get more visitors more often.

The other area I see needing improvement is mainly that I think the compensation aspect of a delusion is necessary to include in it's main definition. There are probably countless sources with stress applied to the compensation, one of them I know being Freud. I tried to make it clear that the delusion does not satisfy a conscious need, but decieves consciousness in the process of satisfying the unconscious. That is why the person cannot explain why they believe a delusion, when at the same time they know that it contradicts facts that they are aware of. This second point is more subjective on my part and I understand that, but I think psychological definitions need to follow the essence of psychology and "explain a behavior". Most pathologies satisfy a need while at a cost, either neurologically, psychologically, or biologically.Joshlepaknpsa 15:56, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

so maybe removing "commonly" would help and improve the page. Dr. Becker-Weidman ^Talk 16:21, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

That would be a start, but I think there is far more that can be done with this page as well as many others.Joshlepaknpsa 19:03, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

So, are we in agreement? If so I will remove the word. What changes do you propose. Why not post those here for discussion? That is the purpose of the talk page. Also, If you would please put a ":" in front of your comments one ":" for each indent so that we can track suggestions, like this:

First commment

Second

Third

Fourth related comment.

Dr. Becker-Weidman ^Talk 19:26, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

My original proposed definition is much better, and I don't think removing any single word is sufficient enough of a change. That is why I changed the definition so drastically when I originally made my edit.Joshlepaknpsa 12:29, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

The concerns I have with your def are the following:

A delusion is a belief created by the mind to satisfy a need, by deceiving consciousness, and can exist with other known facts that prove the belief wrong. In psychiatry, the belief is part of pathological illness.

"The mind" is rather vague.

A delusion is not necessarily created, "to satisfy a need,"

"by deceiving" implies some intention or separate agency.

What I prefer with the existing para is that it is more in line with psychological constructs and language. Dr. Kiff makes the distinction between how the word is "commonly" defined and how it is used in psychology and psychiatry.

Dr. Becker-Weidman ^Talk 13:35, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that "the mind" is vague and I intentionally used it because it can be linked. If a person wants a specific definition, they can click the link to read more about the mind and then go back to the original article to better understand it.

A delusion is created to satisfy some sort of need or it would not exist. There are countless sources backing this fact, from freud and kempf in the fullfillment of the wish, to modern biochemistry where specific sequences of chemical reactions are associated with neurological problems, such as a delusion, and this causes an ongoing struggle to reach equilibrium to satisfy chemical needs. This does not imply that the need comes from the conscious or the "willing" mind, which is what I believe you have interpreted it to mean.

I love this last point you make that "by deceiving" implies some intention or separate agency, because this is the reason I used the concept of deceit. The mind is not one transcending entity, but is made of multiple components that have been proven to exist in the subconscious mind. Some aspects of the subconscious mind operate in opposition to the conscious mind, delusions being one of them. This is indeed an abnormally separate agency in the case of a delusion, and the cause of the separation or "dissociation" is another matter in itself, but it holds true that there is always going to be found a source that is striving to reach some kind of balance. Generally in the psyche it is an attempt to satisfy a need.Joshlepaknpsa 14:11, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think many of Josh's points should go into a seperate section as a psychoanalytic view using references to substantiate each point. There are of course other perspectives which need their own sections filling out. The initial definition should reflect a non clinical level of mistaken fixed thenking and a clinical definition indicating this can have negative implications for everyday functioning and have pathological consequences for people.It may be helpful to gather some dictionary definitions and work from these. I hope these suggestions are helpfulDr Joe Kiff 20:23, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think the intro can stay as is and then the separate section, with appropriate citations, would greatly improve this article and hope that Josh would be willing to do this. It would be a wonderful addition to this article and I'll be glad to work with Josh on this and any other related projects.20:50, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I have clarified the definition further in a way I hope is helpful. Like many articles imported from WP it is far too psychiatric and we could do with some psychological accounts of the processes underpinning delusionsDr Joe Kiff 05:03, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Dr Kiff, you have made logic of this as you usually do. I realize that I can be somewhat biased toward psychoanalysis, even when I try to be completely objective. What I was rather offended by in the deletion of my edits was the deletion of my linguistic edits most of all. I can clean up many articles regardless of their psychological content, and I would like these to be at least appreciated if not my biased views towards psychoanalysis. I read the new definition of delusion just now and it looks much better, and I'm satisfied with it as a general definition.Joshlepaknpsa 12:37, April 27, 2010 (UTC)