Talk:Capture-bonding

The version here on Nov. 20, 2007 is a Wikipedia version largely due to the notorious Sadi Carnot who was finally banned from Wikipedia.

I am trying to get access to better versions to replace it. If not I will rewrite it.

Keith Henson (mentioned in the article and have published on the topic)

Page numbers for quotes
Please put comments and responses below and after each indented section, not interspersed, so it is easier to follow.  Dr. Becker-Weidman  Talk 13:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC) can you provide page numbers for the quotes? If not, it may be best to just include the citation, but not the quote. For citations the usual format is Author, year, title, journal name, vol number, page #'s. with the ref tags.  Dr. Becker-Weidman  Talk 01:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed the following reference because the article does not make mention of Capture bonding, but does of EP.
 * "evolutionary psychology"

Direction and clean up
What I am working on is cleaning up this article by fixing references and checking citations. The article needs some work to put it into format similiar to other articles here; the scientific presentation of material focusing on Psychology and Psychological theories.
 * I removed the following section because I did not find material to support it in the citations given. "John Tooby (then a graduate student at Harvard University) originated the concept and its ramifications in the early 1980s, though he did not publish. .) The term is fairly widely used on the Web and has begun to show up in books."
 *  Dr. Becker-Weidman  Talk 13:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see the direct quote in the article for this section, can you direct us to that?
 * "One of the 'adaptive problems faced by our hunter-gatherer ancestors,' particularly our female ancestors, was being abducted by another band. Life in the human 'environment of evolutionary adaptiveness' (EEA) is thought by researchers such as Azar Gat to be similar to that of the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies. 'Deadly violence is also regularly activated in competition over women. . . . Abduction of women, rape, . . . are widespread direct causes of reproductive conflict . . .' I.e., being captured When selection is intense and persistent, adaptive traits (such as capture-bonding) become universal to the population or species. (See Selection.)"


 * Partial activation of the capture-bonding psychological trait may lie behind Battered-wife syndrome, military basic training, fraternity hazing, and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline.


 * If you can provide the page number for these statements, that would be most helpful and then I can redit the article to include this material.  Dr. Becker-Weidman   Talk 23:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For this one we need citations.
 * "Cynthia Ann Parker (1836 capture) is both an example of the mechanism working and it failing to work when she was captured again much later in life. Evolutionary psychology reasoning would lead you to expect that capture-bonding would be more effective at a younger age when there was more reproductive potential at risk. She did very well evolutionary terms because her son Quanah Parker had 25 children. Mary Jemison (1750 capture) was a very famous case. The last one (1851 capture) may have been Olive Oatman."
 *  Dr. Becker-Weidman  Talk 23:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Source material
Now at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hkhenson/Capture_bonding

See the talk page too. Hkhenson 14:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I see the article there, but the talk page has been deleted by an administrator.  If you could just provide the citations and page numbers we could begin cleaning up this material and adding back what is relevant.  BTW, private e-mails, while personally interesting, don't really meet the criteria of being reliable and verifiable.  As a professional site, a good guide to use is the APA text on style.  You can also look at how to cite sources.  I look forward to working with you on this material.   Dr. Becker-Weidman   Talk 15:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am trying to get the talk page restored as well. Re private e-mails, I am very annoyed at Dr. Tooby for not publishing on capture-bonding (or whatever he called it when he was discussing it in the early 80s).  But I since I have knowledge he did, even though he didn't publish, I can't take credit for originating the concept--in fact feel required to credit Dr. Tooby . I did put this knowledge in the article here: http://human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html footnote 4 (the whole on line journal edited by two respected PhDs has been called into question by wiki lawyers as not being a reliable source in the arguments to delete capture-bonding from Wikipedia. These people did not have the slightest knowledge about evolutionary psychology.)


 * I would really think twice about applying Wikipedia policies to Wikia. I think experts writing readable articles are more important than sticking to a strict policy.  After all, that's what drove me (and this article) from Wikipedia. (Though there is nothing wrong with the APA style if you need to reference something.) Hkhenson 04:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Cite for the John Tooby mention. Footnote 4 in Henson, H. K. (2002). Sex, Drugs, and Cults. Human Nature Review. 2: 343-355.


 * For the quote One of the "adaptive problems faced by our hunter-gatherer ancestors," http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/primer.html The quote is from the second paragraph of the introduction.


 * Nice work. Let me read it in detail.
 * I agree that certain Wikipedia policies would need to be edited and adapted to The Psychology Wiki. I also think that using generally accepted standards in the field, such as the APA Publication Manual, which describes not only formating, but style and criteria for material, is important to ensure the credibility of this site with the Psychology professional community.   Dr. Becker-Weidman   Talk 13:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Part of the reconsideration of policies is "who is coming here and why are they reading this wiki?" I can read the stilted style of professional journals but high school students (who I consider the main targets) are going to be driven away. They need clear writing, something rarely found in a lot of professional journals.


 * Also, I think you are overly optimistic to think that the Psychology professional community would consider any wiki credible. Not unless some group like the APA ruled it with an iron hand. While I don't hold this opinion strongly, there really is a conflict between making an encyclopedia useful and making it conform to professional style. I would appreciate your thoughts on this point. Hkhenson 13:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, now I see your perspective. Actually this site is directed toward the professional community, not H.S. students. (read the main page and descriptions of the purpose and function of this site.)  My understanding is that Dr. Kiff's purpose is to make this a site for professional psychologists...and the general public too, but written professionally and, preferably, by professionals.  Writing style is different (stilted or clear) that the standards used to present material (a different type of style).  Generally, adhering to the APA Manual will be our best approach to the presentation of material.  This has to do with the verifiability and reliability of sources and standards for citations and evidence.  I hope this helps.   Dr. Becker-Weidman   Talk 14:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It does help. I should try to find another wiki for this kind of work because while I happen to be at the expert knowledge level for the evolutionary psychology corner of psychology, I am not a professional. (The way I came by this knowledge was more time consuming and expensive than any PhD program.) What fooled me here was the copying of articles from Wikipedia where the professionals seldom went and the experts are being driven out.


 * If you didn't know it already, EP is a most contentious subject in psychology and sociology. You might appreciate this. http://www.fathom.com/feature/35533/index.html  While EP is relatively young, it makes the fairly large claim that evolution is the way to connect sociology (and a lot of psychology) to the rest of science. Hkhenson 17:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

More source
(edit conflict) For the Azar Gat quote "Deadly violence is also regularly activated in competition over women. . . . Abduction of women, rape, . . . are widespread direct causes of reproductive conflict . . ." Page 15, Anthropological Quarterly, 73.2 (2000), 74-88. THE HUMAN MOTIVATIONAL COMPLEX: EVOLUTIONARY THEORY AND THE CAUSES OF HUNTER-GATHERER FIGHTING Azar Gat Part II: Proximate, Subordinate, and Derivative Causes"  It's on page 15 for the reprint here.  I don't know how to translate that to the original journal article page and don't have access to the hard copy.


 * I read page 15 in detail and do not find that quote. Is it on another page or is this a paraphrase or interpretation?  <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 13:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, typo, page 16, second to last paragraph. Starts:


 * Conflict and fighting in the human state of nature,
 * snip
 * Deadly violence is also regularly activated in competition over women. Although human males are less polygynous than those of some other species, they still compete over the quality and number of women that they can have. Abduction of women, rape, accusations of adultery, and broken promises of marriage are widespread direct causes of reproductive conflict, while resource competition in order to be able to afford more women and children is an indirect cause as well as a direct one.
 * The same material is almost certainly in Dr. Gat's new book _War in Human Civilization_ (Oxford UP, 2006) but I don't have a copy at hand.


 * Excellent! That is clear.  I'd suggest putting in the full quote in context, without the ellipses (...).  Thanks. <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 16:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Could, it's certainly interesting stuff. But the only point relevant to the article is abduction (capture). Hkhenson 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, that would be good. It is always best to put quotes in context so that the reader can fully appreciate the intent and meaning.  regards. <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 02:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Still more source
On the point that being captured was probably relatively common in the past:

"The percentage of females in the lowland villages who have been abducted is significantly higher: 17% compared to 11.7% in the highland villages."

Page 154 in Sexual Paradox: Complementarity, Reproductive Conflict and Human Emergence by Christine Fielder, Chris King - Psychology (2006)

It's actually from a 1987 paper by Chagnon. Also here:. The same page has another relevant quote:

"Like the Yanomamo, perpetual animosity existed between the neighboring tribes of the Jivaro.

snip

. . . wars of genocidal extermination. A significant goal of these wars was geared toward the annihilation of the enemy tribe, including women and children. This was done in order to prevent them from seeking revenge against the victors in the future. There were however, many instances where the women and children were taken as prisoners and forced to become a part of the victors families. A woman who fights, or a woman who refuses to accompany the victorious war-party to their homes and serve a new master, exposes herself to the risk of suffering the same fate as her men-folk. Up de Graff (R713 273) describes a foray with the Jivaro:

snip (gruesome)

Links fixed here:

Capture-bonding as an evolutionary psychology mechanism can be used to understand historical events from the Rape of the Sabine Women to the hundreds of accounts of Europeans (mostly women) who were captured and assimilated into Native American tribes. Cynthia Ann Parker (1836 capture) is both an example of the mechanism working and it failing to work when she was captured again much later in life. Evolutionary psychology reasoning would lead you to expect that capture-bonding would be more effective at a younger age when there was more reproductive potential at risk. She did very well evolutionary terms because her son Quanah Parker had 25 children. Mary Jemison (1750 capture) was a very famous case. The last one (1851 capture) may have been Olive Oatman


 * Good, I'll read all this later. Again, thank you. <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 16:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about this
What is this section supposed to mean? "Napoleon Chagnon quoted at states that among some primitive groups, having their dependent children killed occured." <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman  <font color="#00FF00">Talk 16:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The original read "I.e., being captured [7] and having their dependent children killed might have been fairly common. [8] Women who resisted capture in such situations risked being killed. [9]"


 * The point to this was to explain that evolutionary pressures existed for the psychological trait(s) that--when triggered--result in the condition we call Stockholm syndrome. (As best we can tell by extrapolation from the few remaining stone age people).


 * Killing dependent children is an obvious strategy to prevent captured women from being motivated to escape and return to the tribe they had been abducted from. Hkhenson 04:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think to add that back we'd need the full quote with full citation and page number so that it makes sense. Why don't you do that here for us to all look at? <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 17:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ref 7 is on page on page 154 here:
 * but that's quoted from Chagnon 1987. I don't have access to that journal to get the page number (not even sure what journal it was). Again the point for the article was not Chagnon's point that there is a difference between the lowland and highland abduction rates but that even the lower of the two was over 10% of the women. As little as 1% of a population being subjected to intense selection pressure will fix an advantageous trait.


 * Ref 8 is on page 156 of this book right above the discussion of what happens to Jivaro women who don't go along with being captured, but it's a quote from Hrdy, R330 241. Again I don't know what journal it was in.


 * Wouldn't having the parent keep the child make it less likely the person would leave? Harder to travel and move without a young child in tow.  <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 17:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. But the men are after sex (mates) and in that culture they don't have sexual relations with nursing women. Killing the nursing children of women they capture ends that problem. Killing the rest of the children opens up space for their own offspring in a *very* unproductive environment. The psychological trait (capture-bonding) that is the cause of Stockholm syndrome and a number of other strange human phenomena evolved in a radically different world--one so far gone from our normal experience that we can't understand why Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart acted the way they did. As a bet it would be obvious to the Yanamano or Jivaro. An evolutionary psychology perspective on this (and other) evolved psychological mechanisms is so trivial to people in the field that it's hardly worth mentioning. But outside the field, it's nearly impossible to explain it.  Hkhenson 21:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. If you would now put below precisely what you want in the article, (the exact wording) with full citations and page numbers, let's look at that and then move along, OK?  We are making good progress here on this article <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 22:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is taking serious effort to track down the original references. Turns out the one about the Jivaro head hunters is out of a 1925 book.  The Hrdy reference is also out of a book.  I don't remember if books are permitted as reference sources.  If they are not, the same materials are probably in a journal *somewhere* but will take an awful lot of time and effort to track down.  Hkhenson 16:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, books are valid, verifiable, references...not all are reliable, but that is a different story. The correct manner to cite a book is, Last name, first name (year) Title.  City, State, Country. ISBN number (if available).  The book should be available.  Yes, sourcing material can be a lot of work...in the end it makes for a much more reliable, professional, and useful article.  <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype"> Dr. Becker-Weidman   <font color="#00FF00">Talk 01:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)